yes they do.. have you tried to take down a proto fit 25m+SP ADS with a competent pilot in a python which gets up to 80% resist to swarms? its a nightmare.. you barely scratch em and they can zip off as fast as all hell if they feel the threat is great enough

no problems with a skilled ADS pilot, if he's flying an incubus then the guy deserves a medal cos those things crumble to a solo proto swarm pretty easily without a hardener. the issue is damage vs shields not the vehicles or the swarms but the damage profile.

to be honest all i seem to see is shield tankers trying to defend that shields are 'fine' when they're not.
a skilled ADS/Tank pilot can evade both swarms and forge rounds becasue i've seen it and had some great too-n-fro's with tankers and DS pilots. the main tactic is that as soon as a pilot takes a few hits from swarms they start to make an escape. no denying it because only an idiot would stay in an open space and fight when you're getting AV'd.
the damge vs shield and armour is far too unbalanced when there isn't any valid option vs shields. yeah the PLC may be used as AV, hell i've done it myself vs a loggi but it's on the scale as an MD its more of mixed role not specifically aimed at AV like Forge/Swarms. until we see Amarr, Gallente Swarms and Forge guns then armour tankers will continue to be facing a disadvatage vs forge and swarms, hell its why everyone is jumping into caldari vehicles is because everyone knows they have the advantage over armour when it comes to AV

but there isn't any 'valid' AV thats directed towards shield. only flux nades and PLC. its not about swarms/forge being anti everything if you looked at the post i clearly stated raising shield hp to compensate slightly for the increased damage they'd receive as well as lowering armour hp.

for every 10-15 armour vehicle i take down only 1 or none shield vehicle will go down, i'm not trying to make swarms/FG's all powerful if i was then i'd be saying "ahh f**k the extra HP change swarms to 8 missiles and put damage to 500 per missile wah wah wah" when currently with the tools available the only way to balance AV is to alter damage profile slightly on the 2 main AV weapons because when it comes to AV the only winner is a shield tanking vehicle. because currently swarms and forge are OP vs Armour and if you wasn't so scared of your shield vehicles getting 'nerfed' then you'd realize that damage profiles need to be changed at least until other racial swarms/FGs are introduced.

how is it balanced that out of 4 'AV' wepaons only 1 has a proficiency vs shields? (PLC)

Mass driver - Explosive (-20% shields)
Forge - Rail weapon (-10% shields)
Swarms - Explosive (-20% sheilds)
PLC Plasma (+10% shields)

then you have grenades, AV is explosive again so -20% shields and then flux whick is 100% shields. because yeah AV is totally balanced

have you ever used one vs a Python? vs ground based it can be used well and yeah i've used it with a guy i've ran with for the past 2yrs who's a FGer, if we're going up against loggis i'll either have my galmando with PLC and hit it with a PLC as he's charging the FG, soon as i hit he fires. other option is i'll use cloacked scout with proto flux nades and basically stand/run next to the logi holding the nade and then he fires when the nade goes off.

a viper has 2500 shields. proto swarms on a proto minmando with 2 complex DMs will do about 1100. but thanks to your logic you help my case. if i, solo, can take down a madrugar/incubus but 3 AVers struggle to take down a gunloggi/python how is it balanced?

as i keep trying to stress, the tools themselves arn't the issue its the damage between the 2 defense types and a lack of other options thats causing unbalance.

because it couldn't in no way be down to forge and swarms doing +35% to armour (with prof 5)?

a dumb gunloggi can be taken down with reasonable ease, by dumb i mean one who thinks he's invincible cos he has a hardener running and he's in a loggi and stays to fight. th emain issue is that a clever loggi can get away for too easily and out of range of both forge and swarms because of the reduced damage and charge/flight times of the AV.
armour vehicles though then generally if i've shot my 3 rounds from my proto swarms in my AV suit they're usually dead